Wednesday, February 25, 2009

Nan Kadavul

Who is the God in Nan Kadavul?

When the blind (heroine?) girl is brutally beaten and disfigured by the villain, she asks the Hero the question, why none of the Christian , Muslim or Hindu Gods did not rescue her?. This statement gives an impression that the Movie tends to be atheistic by questioning the very basic belief of all religions that there exists a God that is protective and compassionate. If such a God exists, then why should many innocent people suffer and why not God save them?

Like the heroine we all should ask this questions to ourselves if we are a religious person believing in the existence of a God that creates us and controls us and protects us and is that God a Hindu, Muslim , Christian, a Buddhist or a Zorastrian?.

If there is such a God then why should innocent people suffer? When people suffer and cry for help, who actually helps them?. Only a compassionate human being man alone can wipe the tears of suffering. The more we are educated and getting civilized, the less compassionate we are. We grow more religiously finally becoming fanatic, which then emerges in the form of terrorism threatening our own existence.
Every human being, when helpless in life turns towards God. The heroine in the movie is no exception, who first pleads Hindu gods, then turns towrds Christian God, then the Muslim God and again Hindu Gods. But none of them saves her from the brutal inhumane villain.

When no God(s) help her, the heroine finally takes refuge in a young man named Rudran, who self proclaims “I am God” (Aham Brahmasmi). The same death that he employs to punish the villains, he also uses to relieve the heroine from suffering in life. Can we accept his action of giving her death to end suffering in life, as divine? How can we approve the Director’s portrayal of a mortal Man as God?. How can a Director who himself claims to be an atheist, use an Agori, who Self claims to be God (Aham Brahmasmi) to give relief to suffering?. This aspect has confused many viewers wondering what the Director is conveying through the movie.

The director who spoke through the heroine that no God helped her and all religions are only commercial business corporations, then portrays Rudra who chants "I am God" - Shivoham, Shivoham. Does this mean that the director says that only Rudra-Shiva is the only True God?. Certainly not. Through various symbols he has beautifully given the answer that religions does not help mankind but only spirituality (in form of Compassion) can save mankind. (Click here to read the difference between religion and spirituality).

Story of Beggars
The core story of this movie is about the Villan "Thandavan" who uses handicapped people for his own materialistic interest by employing them in begging. He uses fear and physical abuse as a means to control the group. The whole group lives in a underground construction not known to common public. Thandavan has few other gundas to run his business.

To this South Indian Village, Rudra, the Agori is brought back home by his dad and sister. When Rudra was a small boy , listening to an astrologer , the dad leaves the boy in Kasi. After several years, due to the pressure from the mother, he goes to Kasi in search of the boy. He finds Rudra among a unique sect of ritualistic people called Agori’s. Obeying his Guru’s command, Rudra returns to his village.

Thandavan’s assistant forcefully brings a blind-singer girl (heroine) to the group. A Malayali business agent tempts thandavan to trade some of his beggar-individuals bringing pain of separation in the group. Tempted for more profits, the agent brings an repulsive looking guy who wants to bed with the blind girl. When the blind girl refuses, the angry Thandavan brutally beats her with a stone disfiguring her face and body. She finally takes refuge in Rudran, who kills the villains as an act of punishing anti-social guys and also kills the girl to end her painful life. Rudra then returns to his Guru.

Symbolic message of the Movie
Outwardly this movie seems to be a story of about beggary, a commercial exploitation of both born and forcefully handicapped people by a group of villains. The director has poignantly portrayed the pains and emotions of joy of the beggar group. We are shown their dignified life in the movie which is a commendable job. Through these characters the director has indirectly pointed out the commercialization in all walks of life.

Beggars use various costumes of Gods and Goddesses, Godmen, movie artists businessmen etc. The Symbolism of this core theme is that we are all merely living our lives for materialistic business. All commercial corporations and religious organizations are only doing materialistic business in this world. In the name of temples and churches the religious organizations are only interested in materialistic wealth. We ruthlessly use the images of God and Goddesses for commercial benefits which is symbolized as beggars using the cosmetics of Murugan, Krishna, Hanuman, Andal etc. This concept is reiterated in Ilayaraja's melodious musical score - Pichai pathiram enthi vanthen). The lyrics mean that we come to this world with a begging bowl which is nothing but made of blood, flesh and nervous tissues. The cause for our birth is our own itchai or desire.

Business-love
The director has shown this vested commercialization interest in all walks of life including human relations. Look at the emotional business that the mother does to Arya. "I have given birth to you with so much difficulty for 10 months". Our human relations have no real-love, everything is for give and take business policy. We use the word “love” to someone only if there is a reciprocating benefit for us. This benefit-based-love is the opposite of Compassion or un-conditional love. Unfortunately we mistake un-conditional-love for business-love and each member in such a business-relation begs for each other’s love.

When Rudra quotes the Pattinathar song, explaining the role of the mother and her role in life, we see a clear-faced mother who utters the word "He is a Swyambu", which means that which is not created, it is Self. In Indian spiritual philosophy, Spirit (Self or Aham) is Swyambu or uncreated. It always exists. In Modern science this is known as Consciousness. Matter (Energy) is created or arises from Spirit or Consciousness. The matter then undergoes evolution in all forms and finally in Human body Self-realizes itself as Spirit. This simple science, Indian Spiritual masters symbolized as Sakthi merging with Shiva.

Spirit and Matter: The feeling of matter (materialization) is called as “Ahamkaara” or Ego. The villain “Thandavan” represents the Ego that controls our life through fear and insecurity feeling. The few moments of pleasures keep our life going, but on the whole the life is only a commercial business for the Ego. It is the Ego in us that controls all our thoughts, like Thandavan controlling all the beggars. We are unaware of this Ego controlling us and take it for granted, which is termed as Maya.

This reality we conveniently ignore and finally get frustrated with life when we face deep sorrow in life due to our Ego. This is the time we seek for complete relief from suffering in life. The only thing that can relieve us from suffering is our own Spirit or Self (Aham). This Spirit (Aham) which is free from bondages and so can give relieve us from the bondages of Ego control. This is very beautifully symbolically shown when the heroine grasps the legs of Rudra, the Hero for help, like Sakthi (Energy-matter) merging with Spirit (Shiva). She wears a red-skirt symbolizing sakthi and finally merging with Shiva. The unification is symbolized though the red- eye like symbol in Rudra’s forehead and the throat of the Blind girl.

Aham Brahmasmi – I am God
That is the best scene in the movie. It is the awakening of sleeping spirit in us. If we are not aware of this spirit, then Ego in us will exploit us and we will go into a life of frustration. This spirit is the Aham, which Rudra identifies as Aham Brahmasmi – Nan Kadavul. This Maha vakya is from BrihadAraNya- Upanaishad, the explanatory notes of Vedas.

This Spirit is the Consciousness in us, which is also the source of all creation and is the only one reality. This Consciousness is called as God (many names) in different religions. This awakening is the very purpose of life. This can happen only under the tutelage of a Guru. This is why the Guru is shown the beginning and the end of the movie.

Rudra in Indian Spiritual philosophy represents the awakened power of consciousness to destroy "Ego". The destruction of Ego alone can give us liberation. This is what the heroine cries for. She says not only this birth but all future births she wants to avoid. This is symbolically given in the movie. She does not suffer from her Ego, but the Ego that controls her is the cause of her suffering. The same message holds good for us too. We are not the Ego, but the Ego in us control us and end up in suffering. Moksha or Mukthi is our liberation from the control of Ego. If not we keep taking births after births.

Birth & Re-births: The blind heroine in the end cries that she is tired of being changed hands after hands symbolize our own births and rebirths. She says she is sick of it and wants to end it. The births and rebirths are very painful (death and birth) because we already get attached to members of family and friends. It is painful at both the ends. This reminds us the scenes when heroine is separated from her old group to a new group of Thandavan. The feeling of separation from the old group is akin to our lamenting for death of our relative. In the new birth (new place) it is painful for accustoming to the new relations. Sidhars says this is why new-born babies cry and all relations are temporary. This is symbolized through the dialogues of the heroine who talks about the father she misses, was not her real father.

Cosmic creation: Nan Kadavul is one the best movies ever produced with the deep questions of our own inner quest. The movie starts with the beautiful cosmic creation and our own being (remember the pictures of galaxy and revolving planets).
What we see is not always real, example, the Earth looks like stationary and the Sun revolves. The truth is the opposite, so do not believe the senses. The director aptly has chosen the old "Kannadasan's song - kannai Nambathe, unnai emattrum.
Modern science has helped us to understand many natural phenomenon of the universe, but is struck with the very basic question of our Human Consciousness. Science can only quench this thirst with the help of Spirituality and not through Religion.
Discovering our own spiritual nature is the ultimate purpose of Mankind. We are not just this material body but the spirit (Self or Aham). This inner awakening burns out all karmas and we are free from bondage from future births. Otherwise we are again and again born with ichai (desire) and do pitchai (begging) in this world. (See the beautiful lyrics of Pitcahi pathiram enthivanthen).

When desires later transforms into lust, the Ego tortures us. The lust (kaama veri) has an ugly face which is symbolized as the character who wants to have sex with the blind heroine. The malayali Nair agent shows the ways of how changing the products for season and location can bring better business. This is shown as his interest trade the beggars he has in his custody. These different faces of Ego has to be transcended. This is shown as killing of the villains. Only by killing the Ego villain within us, we can attain liberation. This death is a punishment for the Ego, but a varam (blessing) for the Indiviudal. In Indian spirituality, this killing of Ego is depicted through various rituals.

Rituals: All rituals have this aim of inner transformation. Unfortunately rituals are done in religion without an understanding of this inner transformation. These are indirectly critisized through the prostitute who laments that in December month because of ritualistic marghazhi month and Sabarimalai season she has to starve. Rituals are done just for ritual sake without the awareness of the inner transformation. Hence people continue to do evil actions after performing the rituals.

There are many many deep information coded in this wonderful movie. All the actors especially Arya and Pooja, and the supporting actors have done a very commendable work. It is a life time opportunity they have got which they have done the best. Arya's walk is so commendable, showing the energy of Rudra. Rudra destroys Ego.

Aham Brahasmi ( I am God)

A Hindu or Christian might worship in front of on idol or image of Jesus or Ganesha or kaali. A Muslim might pray without an idol or image in open air. Whatever it is , all their prayers are spoken to within their Self (Aham). No one prays so loud to an unseen God far up in the sky. Every religious person says the prayer silently to one Self (Aham) with the belief that God is hearing their prayer.

Then the question is where and who is God?.

The closest distance between us and God is our own Self (Aham). What we share with us and God is the “Self” (Aham). It is the Self (Aham) that prays to the Self (Aham), silently. So the prayers are towards our own Self (Aham) and the results also comes to the Self (Aham). A religious person believes that the God to whom he or she is praying is somewhere outside in the universe. They do not realize that they speak silently to their own Self (Aham).

A spiritual person is aware of this truth that the Self (Aham) is God and sees this Self, as the same in everyone and everything. This is the key difference between a religious and Spiritual person. This truth is what is proclaimed as “Aham Brahmasmi” – I am God, the God in Nan Kadavul movie.

If there is interest in the movie fans to understand the deep enjoyable symbolism of Nan Kadavul, please send your comments.

51 comments:

  1. Excellent post ! Now I am tempted to see the movie...

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  2. this is really wonderful post. not sure if director thought all this point but what you said it true even many would not understand.

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  3. Quite a post this one. Clear explanations and wonderful comprehensions of the possible interpretations. Good job!

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  4. Excellent analysis and thanks for revealing laws and interpretations of nature!

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  5. You have tried to give meaning to a meaningless movie. This movie is a very wrong portrayal of both spiritualism and life. RUDRAN is not the right redeemer of sinners nor sufferers. Those who know spiritualism will never consider death as a punishment nor relief. It can only be a comma in the never ending cycle of birth and death. Though in the movie they say that RUDRAN is god and he is capable of releasing people from that cycle, why does he not do something for all the beggars? Why does he punish only one bad person and protect only one poor girl. Is there no other way to protect people other than destroying them. If so why is there no story of Shiva,Rama, Krishna or Christ protecting people in that way? I am sorry friend, I have nothing against you. But as far as the movie is concerned I am totally disappointed. According to me Bala is only repeating the same story again and again.

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  6. My comments are not particularly about the movie, but about its basic concept - the title.

    When Adi Sankaracharya said aham brahmasmi, I suppose he did not tell why he thinks we qualify to proclaim we are gods? All religions (as far as I know) of the world, consider God to be superior to human beings. Which necessarily means that God and man are two separate entities. Essentially one is a creator and the other a creation. If that is true, they can neither be one, or can become one. A creator can not become a creation (yes, the creator can take the form of a man (incarnation) but he does not lose his godliness, like the mythical character Rama, in Ramayana. Although he moved as a man, he did retain his Godly stature but chose not to exhibit them). God can not become man - it is not possible for an almighty God to become a helpless man. It is not possible for God to lose himself.

    Similarly, it is not possible that the creation can become the creator. If the creator can become the creation, then there was no need for the creation to come into existence in the first place.

    I think it is a little dicey to consider that I am God or one day I will become God. The esteem in which I hold God is too high. He is holy. He is pure, unblemished, absolute. He is perfect. There is no way I can ever become like him. Even if I start living like him from today, there is no way I can erase my sinful past. There are so many things in my life that I have done already, that is not in accordance with Gods measure of holiness. That 'sin' is always tied to me. I can not enter into the holy presence of God (let alone merge with Him) with all my sinful past. Yes, God can, by his grace and compassion, chose to forgive me of my past, but even then I will remain a forgiven and accepted sinner. I can never equal the stature of God, who is not only sinless in the present but has never sinned ever nor will in the future. So a sinless God and a forgiven sinner can not become one. Holiness and sin cannot combine and still remain holy. If I do manage to merge with Him, then God would lose holiness and an unholy God ceases to be God at all. He then becomes imperfect and does not deserve to be worshipped.

    Some people argue that the atma is holy and it is only the body that is sinful. I see their point. Their claim is that when a man is born - body and mind, the soul which originates from God enters the human body and makes him a man. Sounds good. However, if thats true, the soul belongs to God, not to man. Man is just a temple where God resides in the form a of soul. If so, man can not say "aham brahmasmi". It is like the temple boasting that it is the object of worship and not the idol in it. Man can only say that he is the temple of God, not God himself. It becomes blasphemous for man to say "aham brahmasmi", and do things that do not befit a God. Apart from being a lie, it is like making mockery of a holy and loving God.

    The ultimate objective of Hinduism is to get us to realize that all of us are no different from God. If so, then those of us who have realized it should be able to to do things that only God could do - like create a universe, create life, be immune to death, be all-knowing, and most importantly live sinless lives (in thoughts, words and deeds). I do not know of any man like that, and certainly I can not do any of those things, and therefore I can not say "aham brahmasmi" and mean it too.

    As for me, I am a sinner who can never claim to be equal with God. The nearest I can come to a holy God is to ask his forgiveness for my sins, and acceptance as his servant.

    This is my view. I may be partly or completely wrong. If I have offended anyone with my words, my heartfelt apologies.

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  7. Dear Arun
    I am glad to read your views and feel your good hearedness and humbleness not to hurt any one's feelings. My request to you is that let us take this as a discussion and not as personal hurting matter. My objective is that our open discussion here would benefit so many readers to clear their own personal doubts. I am not here to prove you are wrong and I am right (it may sound like that). But the clear objective of the discussion is to do clear reasoning and know the Truth.

    If you dont mind I will ask clarifications from you and then after your answers you can do vice versa also.

    Very important if one of us cannot reply to a question , we should not take as a personal defeat. But then should take the other person's answer to further continue the discussion and not leave it half way for the readers.


    You said "As for me, I am a sinner who can never claim to be equal with God. The nearest I can come to a holy God is to ask his forgiveness for my sins, and acceptance as his servant".

    My question is - what sin have you done for you to say you are sinner. When and why did you commit that sin and what forgiveness are you asking. If forgiven what happens to you and if not forgiven by god what happens to one.

    We will start the discussion with these questions. I am glad our discussion will stay in internet for millions of people all over the globe to read and is not to hurt anyone's feeling and beleif system, but a rational inquiry of our human existence.

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  8. What sin have you done for you to say you are sinner. When and why did you commit that sin:

    To be honest, I am ashamed to tell out aloud all the 'dirty' things that I have done so far in my life. Sometimes, it was unintentional (in other words - ignorance), but most of the times it was intentional - meaning I did what I did knowing fully well that it was wrong to do it. It was wrong, because either it hurt someone else, or it hurt my God. For example, I cheated in a class test, and I know it is wrong. I have used dirty words at others when I was angry. I have willfully lied at times to save embarrassment - I was not bold enough to own my mistakes. These are the lesser evils I dare list. Basically sin is anything that displeases God. According to Sivaya Subramuniyaswami sin is an intentional transgression of divine law. Pratha snana mantra, which is recited before reciting gayatri mantra goes like this:

    Papokam Papakanmokam Papatma Papasambhava....
    (I am a sinner, I sin, I am sinful, I am born in sin....)


    What forgiveness are you asking:

    Perhaps you mean 'why you are asking for forgiveness'. When I acknowledge I know God and I love him, I also take it upon myself to live a life that is consistent with my beliefs. Not just because others would judge me if don't, but because I would be hurting the feelings of my God. Because my God loves me and considers me his child, my response to his love has be one of obedience to his wishes. And because my God is absolutely holy (complete absence of sin), it becomes important for me to remain sinless in order to be in communion and fellowship with him. And therefore it is essential that when I sin, I ask for his forgiveness.


    If forgiven what happens to you and if not forgiven by god what happens to one:

    In my opinion, there is no 'if forgiven'. I believe that God is always willing to forgive. Similarly, there is no question of 'if not forgiven by god'. The God in whom I believe is one who is loving and is ready to forgive. Only requirement being I acknowledge that I was wrong, and go to him and ask him to pardon me. Forgiveness restores the loving relationship I have with God, which I lost by displeasing him. It is not that God goes away when I sin, instead I tend to move away from God because I have acted in a way that I know my God does not like. And this might be because of guilt and shame. But when I muster enough courage to face him, confess to him, and tell him I sinned and ask for his forgiveness, my fellowship with him is restored, and I can once again commune with him in love.

    If on the other hand, if I do not to ask for forgiveness and remain obstinate about my 'sin', I willfully chose to live away from God.

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  9. Dear Ramesh,
    You are right, death is not an end but a comma for the next birth. But the very same death is moksha a liberation. The question is liberation from what ?. the answer might be from sufferings from life and to end the endless birth and life cycle. Our shastras says samsara ends when we transcend the Ego and realize our True nature (Atma or Consciousness). It does not happen to everyone, but only to those who seek for it.
    This is symbolically represented in the movie and so death is inevitable for all the beggars, but is given only to the blind girl because she asks for it and not for others. She asks for the end for not only this birth but for all births. She symbolically asks moksha through that dialogue and Rudran represents the Consciousness. Symbolically it is shown as third eye on the throat of the girl and also on the forehead of Rudra.
    Spiritually death represents the death of the Ego and not to atma the soul. No one can kill it or destroy it says Upanishads. Taking the movie literally makes it a meaningless one. Symbolically it makes a wonderful movie.

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  10. Dear Arun,
    Thanks for your replies.

    Papokam Papakanmokam Papatma Papasambhava. I don’t know why you brought this in our discussion. First of all there is no mantra like this which I enquired scholars. There are words of papam in mantras but are not meant to self condemn as a sinner. Any way this we will discuss later.

    I am rephrasing again questions based on your replies.
    When a child is born it has done no sin. Only when it grows it does sin. As you said tells lies , steals etc etc. When done no sin, Why should a child be born handicapped, why should a sinless child become a beggar. Why should a sinless child six months baby get cancer and diseases.
    Question number one. Is there a connection between sin and sufferings in life. Are they independent of each other.
    If there is a God and if that god is all forgiving (as you have written), then why should a innocent baby suffer. Why should people die in different ages?. Why does not God protect them?. Is God partial to some people and not to others. Are diseases and sufferings in life punishments of God?.
    Question number two. Does God exert any control over Human lives, our happiness, well being, sufferings, hardships joys, diseases etc etc. Or he just sits and watches like a television serial.

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  11. Your questions are very legitimate and are ones that almost all people have grappled with. I do not know why you are asking me, but if you want my opinion on them, this is what I have to say:

    Is there a connection between sin and sufferings in life. Are they independent of each other
    My answer is both yes and no. Yes at a broader level, but no at a deeper lever, which I will not discuss here.

    Basically I do not relate sin with suffering. If that were true, then all those who sin, would be suffering, and therefore very few will sin fearing the consequence. But in reality I see many many evil people living perfectly normal lives, not just outwardly, even their private lives. They have wonderful wives, good children and die peaceful deaths. This shows that bad people need not necessarily suffer in life.

    So a child born handicapped, or with cancer, or becoming a beggar does not have anything to with the sin that it has committed in its life.

    If there is a God….
    I am sure you believe in God’s existence.

    ….and if that god is all forgiving…
    Again I am sure you believe God is loving and he is capable of forgiving his loved ones.

    ….then why should a innocent baby suffer.
    You are asking why should a loving God let an innocent baby suffer. I do not know the answer. The explanation that I have, you will not accept, so I will leave it unsaid. However it is a good idea to take a reverse look at the effect. Because there are innocent people suffering in this world, can we take it as a proof for the non-existence of God? Or for the existence of an evil god (which is logically self-contradictory)? Since both these assumptions cannot be true, there must be an alternative explanation, which is what I hold, but refuse to discuss it here, atleast not yet. Suffice to say, suffering innocents do not disprove the existence of a loving God.

    Why should people die in different ages?
    I do not know the reason behind this question. The answer is very obvious – people die because they have been in an accident, or due to some disease, or due to old age, which catches up at different times for different people in different countries. But I am sure you are not looking for this answer, and I fail to understand what you really are looking for.

    Why does not God protect them?
    You mean why does God let people die and not prevent them from death? If God were to give eternal lives to people, then there will be no place on earth for new people. I think birth and death are normal process of life. I think that's the way God planned it. But if your actual question is why God allows suffering in this world, I have already stated my position above.

    Is God partial to some people and not to others.
    I think it will be against the personality of God to be partial. So, no, God cannot be partial.

    Are diseases and sufferings in life punishments of God?
    No. If that were true, all of us would be having diseases and will be suffering.

    Does God exert any control over Human lives, our happiness, well being, sufferings, hardships joys, diseases etc etc. Or he just sits and watches like a television serial.
    Exerting control – no. Intervene – yes. There is a difference. Sits and watches like a television serial – no. Gets into the act if called – yes. He is personally interested in each man he has created. He is yeaning for all of us to come to him and live life according to his wishes, but does not force them to. He wants everyone to follow his commandments because, as the author of life, there is no one better than him to guide us in our lives. He does not force us to into his ways because then the essence of love is lost. He wants people to come to him on their own accord.

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  12. Dear Arun,
    Thanks for your replies. The questions I ask are the fundamental question every man asks. But most of the questions you have not answered because you says I will not agree. Whether I agree or not does not matter. If there is a logical conclusion not only me any one will accept. If it is logical and if I don’t accept that it shows my immaturity or something wrong with my intellect.

    I don’t believe in God, but I am not an atheist or agnostic (sounds contradictory). I will come my views when you ask me questions. I will definitely answer your questions to best of my ability. All questions about creation, evolution, life, about suffering, diseases, accidents etc. But before that I want to know your views only then I can answer them if the views are similar or contradictory.
    I am asking your views, which basically would represent the views of religious people. My questions would be questions that any atheist or agnostic would ask. So feel free to express views. As I mentioned earlier, this discussion would definitely help atheist, agnostic and religious and spiritual people. Everyone fall into one of these categories.
    Arun it is not clear from your view the relationship between God and his creation. From what you wrote in the end, I get the impression this is the nature of God
    1. It looks like God has no work, just to sit and create people for self amusement.
    2. He looks miserable yeaning for attention of the people who he created.
    3. He must be a sadist and power addicted and so he likes to control everyone.
    4. He created human beings which are imperfect beings doing all sins and undergoes suffering in life.
    Can you comment the above five points.

    Arun, before this birth what were you and after birth what will you become.

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  13. Hi Pradheep,

    You seem to be making fun of my description of God. I know you will immediately deny this. But it is plain in your response. I noted a hint of satire when you mentioned in your last post if God 'just sits and watches like a television serial'. But in this post there is no hint, you have made it plain that you like to make fun of views that you do not agree with. Let me rephrase what you have written ' god has no work, creates people for self-amusement, looks miserable, he is sadist, he is power monger, etc. Was there any need to write these words? C'mon, I was thinking we are an educated group having a healthy chat.

    Please understand that I hold the God that I have described in high honor, and it hurts me when someone makes a mockery of him. Again, I am sure you will quickly point out that you never intend to mock my God, but you did. Thank you. Also understand that by making fun of another person's view, you are only driving him away from you/your views, instead of bringing him closer to understanding your position. You may want to remember this in future discussions.

    You said I did not answer 'most of the questions'. I did not answer one question of the eight you asked - why doesn't God intervene in human suffering. If that means most of your questions, then so be it.

    It appears that you will tease anyone who comes with a view other than the one you hold. I think this attitude is not conducive to healthy discussion. There is no point writing more and making a fool of myself. I am sorry I wasted so much time on the comments I already posted. I was sincere and spent quite some time on the replies, but now I know I shouldn't have taken this seriously.

    The last 4 points say that you have already come to solid conclusions about the God that I was describing, so there is no point in discussing this any further. I was sincerely hoping this was going to be a meaningful and lengthy discussion, but I regret to say I must leave. If it makes you any happy, you may consider that I left because I could not answer your questions.

    Am I upset - yes, hurt. Should you worry about it - ah well, all this is just an illusion!!!

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  14. It would have been way easier for me to simply ignore your comment and your blog and get on with my life. But I consider you as someone my God created and therefore worthy of respect, that is why I forced myself into writing what I wrote above.

    God bless you!

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  15. what’s with the whining baby? booooooo……..sob sob sob…….ha ha ha!!! why don’t you just shut up and leave if you can’t face the questions? the other dude was only making an-atheist-point-of-view comment….whats with taking it personally?
    and to the other dude: you say you don't believe in god but you are not an atheist. wow, I eat pork but I am a vegetarian!!! Cool man…... some nice bunch of !@#@$@&^* we have here….ha ha ha

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  16. Dear Arun
    One could use satire or criticism as a personal insult or could use it for self-improvement. It is all a matter of attitude.

    From my heart I am telling you, that my intension if to make people think, by shaking their beliefs. Copernicus and gallelio, Darwin has shaken the western belief systems. So many people were hurt from their personal belief systems they had. They were thinking Earth was stationary and sun was revolving around it. That man was created by a person with a white beard and creating everyone. But look at the evidence they gave. Whether people are hurt or not, Truth is Truth. Even you cannot deny Evolution when you look at DNA sequences. Dont we see our personal belief's are contrdicting with what when we see scientific data. Do we say, oh it hurts my personal belief system and what it says in my holy books and quit scientific profession. Dont we stick on to our scientific jobs when it challenges our personal belief's of a God system. If that is not done, then why turn away from this discussion?


    Truth hurts everyone’s Ego. It will hurt pradheep’s Ego, Arun’s Ego or Adi’s Ego. But Truth is Truth. Nan kadavul movie has raised such questions on the belief systems of religious people. All religions are questioned.

    My son like all children was believing in fairies, toy-fairy, tooth-fairy etc. For every tooth he pulled down, next day in his bed he found a dollar, thinking that it was given by the tooth-fairy. That is okay for when he is a child. But he cannot have inner growth if he keeps on with his belief system. Like any parents I had to shake his belief systems. The intension is not to hurt him but to allow his inner growth. The fairy is an “illusion”.

    Same way God being in heaven creating all of us, yeaning for our love” is all an illusion. It is a fairy tale. I don’t think it is wrong or un-necessary to have such beliefs. It is needed for our intial growth and mental support like fairy tales. But we cannot cling on to such belief’s for ever. Then we are stunting our growth.

    Like a iron fence we put when a seedling grows to protect it from environment. But at a certain stage we have to throw away the iron fence , otherwise that fence which protected the seedling will block it from growing to a big tree.

    Same way religious beliefs are needed initially, but one has to grow out of it. I am no exception as a child I was religious in belief system. My Ego hurted when my belief system was questioned. Luckily I overthrew religious belief system and allowed inner growing.

    My Dear Arun,
    Hope you understand my intension. It is upto you whether you want to continue discussing. There is no force.

    You wrote : Am I upset - yes, hurt. Should you worry about it - ah well, all this is just an illusion!!!

    Really sorry Arun. I apologize.

    To make you happy, (tit for tat for hurting you) you may want to start critizicing my views. I wont be hurt at all. But one condition, if my views are logical , you should atleast show the maturity of accepting that it is logical. Till you are satisfied you can drill me with questions. I am ready.
    You can pick any question.

    Or I give a choice from your own words in your last comment …It is an illusion.
    Well my dear Arun, this world in not an illusion. I understand you are quoting Adi-sankara. Adi-sankara did not Say this world is an illusion, if that was True then he need not have done anything or written commentaries on books. He should just been chanting, this world is an illusion. This world is an illusion.

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  17. Dear Adi
    Thanks for your comments. I gave a contrdictory statement that I dont beleive in but I am not an athiest or agnostic. I wanted to explain it later. I know there is no God with a white beard sitting in a place called heaven and creating everyone. That is a fairy tale.

    At the same time, I know God exists, and that God is Aham...Aham Brahmasmi.

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  18. You claim "I know there is no God with a white beard sitting in a place called heaven and creating everyone". You seem to be pretty sure of that. You must be the only person alive who has been to heaven before. Wow, thats so cool. How is it there? Oh, so god does not have a white beard...so is it gray? Or red? Oh he must be clean shaven I guess? I am sure you must have had a photo session with him. I sure would love to see your photo with your god.

    Oh, I forgot, you said there is no god at all. No, you didn't say there is no god, you said 'you KNOW there is no god. You must be one super brilliant dude from heaven who KNOWS everything. Can you give me some proof to show there is no god? If you can not, are you not assuming and stating your opinion? And if you are assuming, why should what you assume be the absolute truth, and why should be others with a different assumption be wrong? Is it because you are the next messiah? Or do you consider others plain idiots? I am right, always. Everyone else is wrong, always - unless they agree to me.....

    Stop saying you KNOW. You can say you know how it feels when you walk on this earth, but you can never say how it feels when you walk on the moon, until you have been there.

    oh wait a minute - now you say god exists....fantastic....you seem be completely lost...try to find yourself first and then think of finding god. So what does your god do if he is not creating? sleeping? or is he just not capable of creating...one poor dude he must be, claiming to be god, but failing to create....ha ha ha...

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  19. His parents had no work, so just to amuse themselves they gave birth to pardip (oh oh!!??!!) Although his parents were excellent people, the son grew up into an adamant and arrogant teenager, and never loved his parents. So his parents were miserable, yearning for his attention. One day he asked them to buy him a car, but his parents refused. He called them sadists and power-addicted. Next day he stole his neighbor's car and got into an accident and killed a lady. He was badly injured, the police charged him with robbery and man-slaughter. When his parents came to meet him at the hospital, he shouted at them saying all this suffering he was undergoing was because of them

    Yes all the fault was with the parents. Why did they give birth to pardip? they shouldn't have because then there would be no further questions. And even if they did want to amuse themselves, they should have first asked their son's permission before they did anything. After all, isn't the son greater than the parents?!!!

    They gave him all the love, and in return they expected the same from their son. Again it was their fault and that is why they were miserable. You should never expect love and appreciation in reciprocation from your son. If the son roams around drunk, on drugs, not caring a **** about the parents, then they should just feel happy and celebrate. Only foolish parents feel miserable.

    Why didn't they get a car when the teenager asked them - because they were sadists and wanted to show their power and authority on their son. They were complete idiots. Don't they know their son knows better than them?!!!

    And when the son takes his life into his own hand and messes up, again it is the fault of his parents, because they should have locked him up in a prison as soon as he was born, and should have never given him any freedom. They should have never showed him outside world. If he wanted a car, they should have bought him a car and asked him to drive it in the prison itself. This is the best way to show true love. Every parent should do this. Otherwise it means that they really do not love their children. But alas, since the parents are idiots, they did not do it. If they did not know how to raise a child, can't they atleast ask their son?!!!

    Oh...does this story sound familiar....I thought I read something like this somewhere here. It is hi-time god started listening to us....the world would have been so much better. Funny, god does not know we are more intelligent than our creator. May be we should replace him!!!

    Cheers!

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  20. Dear Adi and Madhavan
    Thanks for your humorous mocks. Good enough. Please dont waste further space and time for this.

    Instead give answers to the questions we discuss here

    or

    ask questions that you wish to understand.

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  21. The story that I posted earlier is an answer to your ridicule in a previous post - can't you see it? Open your eyes and understand that it is not a 'humorous mock'. It is you who need to understand who a loving god is. I hope you wake up from your arrogance and humble yourself to an almighty God.

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  22. Dear Madhavan
    I humbly ask you to help me to humble myself to almighty God. There might be a few arrogant like me and your explanation might help all of us to get rid of arrogance and find peace within us and in the world.

    So my dear madhavan, please tell answer me, where is God. Is he limited to a particular place or present every where? I am humbly asking you this question, please answer me.

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  23. Thats right Madhvan, this dude does not seem to understand there are questions in our rhetoric. Probably he needs us to break it down for him to see it.

    1. How do you KNOW there is no god with a a white beard?
    2. How do you KNOW he is not up there in heaven?
    3. Is this a scientific fact that you stating?
    4. If not, is it your opinion/assumption?
    5. Have you been to heaven?

    These are the questions that I had asked you, but it appears that you don't understand things when they are a little complex (don't know how you claim to understand things about god though). Or was it more convenient for you to ignore them, because you did not know how to deal with them?

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  24. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  25. That's right, you don’t seem to understand rhetoric. Those were questions, but since as someone else already pointed out, you don’t seem to understand questions unless put in text book style:

    1. It looks like God has no work, just to sit and create people for self amusement. What makes you think that god should not just sit and create people for self-amusement? Who are you to dictate what god should, and should not do? Who are you to judge his actions? Are you more wiser than the source that your wisdom came from?
    2. He looks miserable yeaning for attention of the people who he created.He loves his people. And when they go astray, he feels miserable. What is wrong with feeling miserable? Who are you to DEFINE god, and say he should not or can not feel emotions? You might perhaps feel happy if he chose to simply wipe you out of this planet for being so arrogant. Is that what you want god to be?
    3. He must be a sadist and power addicted and so he likes to control everyone .Here you are contradicting yourself. This is what happens with those who do not think before speaking. If god is loving – he is miserable, if he is not loving – he is a sadist, power addict. Wow what logic! Is this the way you argue. If yes, I will make sure I do not waste any more time here.
    4. He created human beings which are imperfect beings doing all sins and undergoes suffering in life.Here at last you got a point. But you seem to be pretty sure of this conclusion, so probably you do not have any questions about this. Let me ask you, what then is the reason people do bad things? If Hitler is a god, as you claim, why did he kill 6 million jews? Surely the jews were not asking for release from life into moksha. Don’t say Hitler was rudran of his times and make me laugh. I am already worried about what you will say next – that bin laden is god too. Oops sorry, no rhetoric – because it confuses you.

    Since the above 4 points may be too much for you, let me simplify it further:
    1. Who are you to dictate what god can or can not do?
    2. Who are you to judge why god should or should not feel?
    3. Do you agree that you are contradicting yourself in points 2 and 3?
    4. What is the reason for suffering in this world?

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  26. Dear Adi

    1. How do you KNOW there is no god with a a white beard?

    Please tell me what you understand by God. Who is GOD and where is he. Then that way I will tell how I know that there is no God with white beard.

    2. How do you KNOW he is not up there in heaven?
    Please tell me what is heaven.
    3. Is this a scientific fact that you stating?
    Yes it is a scientific fact.

    4. If not, is it your opinion/assumption?
    5. Have you been to heaven?
    I am already in heaven only.

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  27. Dear Madhavan

    What is the reason for suffering in this world?
    We create our own suffering in this world. No one else cause problems. It is thoughts in our mind that create everything good or bad. Mind is like a knife, you can stab some one or you can cut fruits and offer them to some one. So it is all our choice, whether we want to make us and other happy or cause suffering to others as well as to us. Do you agree with this or do you see non-sense in my answer.

    Similarly I can very clearly explain all the three questions you asked me. Unlike the 4th question I answered, I need your view of what do you mean by God, is God a He or She or It and where is God (if exist).

    ReplyDelete
  28. Great answer....

    1. So when you say 'its all our choice', does it mean 'aham brahmasmi' s choice?Are you implying that 'A.Brahmasmi' is the reason for all the sufferings caused 'to others as well as to us'?

    2. Are Hitler and bin laden gods?

    I don't think you need to know my views to answer number 1, 2 and 3. You can go be your definition of god.

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  29. I asked you 5 questions. Answer to Q 3 depends on answers to Q 1 and 2. Answer to Q 4 depends on answer to Q 3. Of the first 4 questions, you answered only one - the 3rd question, but since the answer depends on the foregoing questions, your answer stands invalid. Am I correct?

    3. Is this a scientific fact that you stating?
    Yes it is a scientific fact.

    What is the scientific fact???? I am not asking whether god is up there or not. I am asking how do YOU know?

    Result: you did not answer my first 4 questions. If you can not answer, please say so. There is no need to ask a reply question and divert attention.

    For the 5th question: you said you are in heaven. Wow, I did not know heaven is connected by internet. Anyway since you are in heaven, you must be like god - holy and perfect. There should be no lust in your eyes, there should be no pride in your mind, you perhaps are absolutely unselfish, never get angry, always smiling, etc.

    1. Is this true?
    2. Can you say you have no problems in your life, now that you are in heaven?
    3. Do you live with your wife and children in heaven? Do you ever fight with your wife and admonish your children?

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  30. Dear madhavan
    When I say "our" choice" it is also our choice to identify who we are. If some one take the choice of identifying themselves as body mind sense complex, then they act according to the likes and dislikes of Ego.

    Well, if they identify themselves as Aham, then they Good for themselves and for others.

    You asked are Bidladin and Hitler gods?. Now tell me what do you mean by Gods. My understanding of God if different from yours and that is why even if I answer yes or no, would make no sense to you, untill you write what is your understanding about God.

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  31. Dear Adi,
    Yes simple, write about your understanding of God briefly, I will help yourself to find answers for those questions.

    Scientific facts are subjects to experimentation, observation and drawing inference. So my statement are based on the above processes.

    Dear Adi,
    I am not trying to deflect from answering. You dont have the courage to put in writing to public, about your understanding about God.

    Heaven is not only connected through internet but also by intranet.

    Can I take from your writings that you think God is holy and perfect, no lust in eyes, no pride in mind, absolutely unselfish, never get angry, always smiling, etc.

    So you mean to say God is a man, with eyes and a face.

    How big or small are the eyes and face. Can you give measurements.

    That is true no problems in life.

    No fight with wife and child, we use only few words often "yes you are right honey".

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  32. So you mean to say it is up to us to make the choice of what we want to be. Therefore aham brahmasmi is not an absolute truth. It all depends on what we chose to believe. If we want to believe that we are aham, then we are gods - which is absolutely true. If we chose to believe we are mind-body-sense complex, then we are just that - which is also absolutely true. It appears that in your world, two opposing truths can be absolute. I am sorry my friend, your definition of absolute is terribly screwed up.

    What makes sense to me or not is not important. You are expressing your views here. And I want to know whether you consider bin laden and Hitler to be gods, according to your understanding of god. It is your concept of god that is under fire here, not mine.

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  33. I will help yourself to find answers for those questions.
    There goes your assumption again - what makes you think I am struggling to find answers to life's questions? Its your screwed up theology thats needs a little straightening here. I am fine, thanks for the offer though.

    Scientific facts are subjects to experimentation, observation
    Can you please explain to me what scientific experiments and observations you made to come to the conclusions that there is no God up there? It will be interesting to know, because you will be the first person in the world to have experimentally proved that God does not exist in heaven. Since it is a scientific experiment, I am sure it can be repeatable in any lab conditions, by anybody, and there will be no way to refute it.

    and drawing inference.
    ha ha....there you go....drawing inference. Similar experiments and observations can lead to different inferences. So please tell me, what makes your inference right, and other inferences wrong?

    You dont have the courage to put in writing to public
    Oh yes, I am really scared. You happy now?

    Can I take from your writings that you think God is holy and perfect, no lust in eyes, no pride in mind, absolutely unselfish, never get angry, always smiling, etc.
    There goes your reply questioning again!!!

    So you mean to say God is a man, with eyes and a face.
    One more here!!!

    How big or small are the eyes and face. Can you give measurements.
    Here is one more!!!

    Brother, I asked you a question: Do you have no sensuality in your eyes, no pride about anything in life, absolutely no enmity with others, no strife with others, jealousy, no anger on others, no disputes with anybody, no envying at all? Is your life ALWAYS filled with love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness and gentleness? Are you a perfect being? Are you flawless?

    That is true no problems in life.
    I am glad to hear this, 'honey'. You must be one hell of a husband who has never had arguments with your wife. I do not think you are being honest here, but this is just my assumption, so you are safe.

    FYI, there are 6 questions (in bold), which requires 6 answers. Please refrain from asking questions when you are supposed to be answering. As the guy above put it - what I believe or not does not matter. It is your theology thats getting drilled here. If I start a blog about my theology, then I will definitely invite you to ask questions.

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  34. Dear madhavan
    You have not clearly read what I wrote. You have the body, mind and the Self (Aham). If you identify yourself with the body and mind and senses, then you go by what it portrays to you. Then you suffer from what happens to the body and the mind.

    But if you identify yourself with Aham, which is unchanging , eternal, then you are that eternal unchanging aspect.

    The choice I meant to you was, whether you want to go identify to your body mind (EGO), or identify with Aham depends on knowledge. Knowledge removes ignorance. To know the physical reality of the universe you need to study physics, chemistry and biology. if you need to know the spiritual reality then you have to study spiritual science.

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  35. Oh yes, I am really scared. You happy now?
    I am always happy whether you are scared or not scared.

    whom should I act honesty. What do I gain telling lies about myself. If I am happy with my wife , it is good for me only not for you.

    Dear Adi,
    You came with a comment and not a question. Read your first comment to me. So you did not start with questions.
    If you are really keen then read the information in the link given below. You will find answers to all your questions on God, experiments, suffering, Ego, Aham etc etc

    http://veda.sakthifoundation.org/fundamental.htm

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  36. Since you did not answer my hitler/bin laden question inspite of repeating again and again, I take it that your theology is unable to explain such contradictions it poses on itself.

    Let me get the other part straight

    You said:
    I = body+mind+aham
    aham=self

    So when you say
    'identify yourself with Aham'

    it means

    identify yourself with self

    how do I (self) identify self with self? Contradictions!

    whether you want to go identify to your body mind (EGO), or identify with Aham
    are you asking whether aham wants to identify with ego, or aham wants to identity with aham

    Do you see the conflict here?

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  37. Thanks buddy, you seem to have run out of gas. I can see you gasping.

    I am not keen to know more about what you adamantly claim to be true. I wanted YOU to see the 'holes' in your theory, and refrain yourself from forcing such flawed concepts on others. If you do not see any questions in my first post, that only shows how much you can read. I was clearly ridiculing your concept and jabbing you for an answer. I did not know then that you needed questions posted in a way a schoolboy can understand.

    The only question I have been asking is 'HOW do you KNOW' there is no god in heaven. To this day, you have not answered it. If you can not, then you really do not KNOW. It is only your own assumption - that you are claiming to be absolute truth. Assumptions are not absolute truths. Well I do not worry, there are thousands in this world who go around claiming such things, you are just one disillusioned among them.

    Thanks for your time. Hopefully I will see you one day when I am with my loving compassionate God up there in heaven, and then you will 'see' all the right answers.

    And to set the records straight, let me apologize for all the unkind words I used. I did that on purpose, as a way of retaliating against the language you used to describe 'the god with a white beard sitting in heaven'. I am sorry.

    Adieu!

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  38. Dear Madhavan
    My answer is Hitler and Bidladin are God (Aham). But now the God you understand may not be the God I understand and so there will be a conflict. This is why I asked your understanding God and so my answer will not make any sense to you.

    What is your understanding of "Self". Your understanding may be different by what I mean by self and so there looks a contradiction. Let me know your understanding of "Self" and then my explanation will make sense to you.

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  39. Dear Adi
    what holes did you find. Just because you dont understand Truth can never be false. Sun looks running around the Earth and Earth seems stationary. Just because your senses shows it is not correct. How do you know the Truth, you need to make attempts to know it.

    same way if you want to know that there is not God with a white beard in heaven, do Yoga, pranayama and Meditation and in addition do Selfless service to all beings. Then you will know.

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  40. Dear adi
    Heaven would be a horrible place, because all these millions of people being there would make everyone unhappy. Because everyone want to be near the white beard guy, which would be practicably impossible. people who are far away from him would eb very unhappy. If God makes himself big enough then those in the front would be like sitting and watching in the front row of the movie screen. So everyone would be unhappy in heaven. Plus there is no other activity, only just sitting in front of God, would be so boring. How long can any one keep looking at a old white beard guy.

    So I dont want to meet you in heaven. I will be here on Earth birth after birth and do the small help possible to everyone.

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  41. Thanks for explaining your concept of god. I do not want to live in a world where hitler and bin laden are called gods. Hitler is god, the jews he killed are also gods. bin laden is god, and he is hiding away from the american military, which is also god. god is running away from god. god is chasing god. god is punishing god. god is killing god. god is raping god. god is a drunkard. god is a prostitute. god is a criminal. god is a drug dealer. god is a child-molester. god is gay. everyone is god. wow, pretty amazing.
    god is both good, and god is evil.
    the drunkard is god, and the alcohol he drinks is also god. so why bother advising people not to drink?
    the smoker is god and the cigarette is also god, why bother quitting smoking?
    the rapist is god and the raped is also god, why bother punishing the rapist?
    the police is god, and the thief is also god, why bother chasing the thief?

    how is it that god drinks god, and gets heart attack?
    how is it that god smokes god, and gets lung cancer?
    how is it that god rapes god, and it is devastating to the one who gets raped - she should enjoy it - when god himself is raping you, it should be privilege. In fact all women should go and get raped by as many gods as possible, may be they will reach moksha soon.

    Oh I have to realize then I will know that I am god. And what about the table which is also god? Does it also have to realize that it is god. What about the trash bin, does it also have to realize that it is god, before it can do good deeds to others? I did not know that in-animate objects will also have to realize that they are aham. Do you also suggest that they to yoga, pranayama and meditation, in addition to selflessly accepting trash from other gods?

    Does it look like I am making fun? Or does your highness see the stupidity in your statement? Hitler and bin laden are gods!!! Go tell this to the jews who lost their relatives, and to all those families who lost their loved ones on 9/11. They will build a temple for you.

    Whether I tell you my understanding of god or not, there is no way your definition of god will make sense to me, nor do I want to understand this non-sense. Be happy though, because you may get some nice gifts from nazis and bin laden's followers for calling them gods.

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  42. Dear Madhavan
    Let me summarize so far what we have concluded.

    Pradheep says there is no God in heaven with a white beard creating and controlling everything and everyone. Instead he seems to call everything - animate and inanimate things, good and bad people as God.

    Madhavan says there is white beard guy sitting and creating a perfect world. But he also acknowledges that there are prostitutes, rapists, hitlers and binladins who kill innocent people.

    Now how can you call such a God as all powerful and all-controlling , when these bad things happen. How can such a God be called compassionate when Tsunami and 9/11 killed so many thousands of people.

    Dear Madhavan
    Can you accept that this white beard God in heaven does not make sense?, that there is no such fairy. Such a fairy God is created by people only.

    Such a God did not create this universe. It is the reverse. Only people created a God in their minds and convert other minds to follow their belief system which makes no sense at all. Out of fear and selfish motives, people convert others in to their non-sense belief system, which is of no use, but only can create more wars and terrorism.

    It is selfish people's mind that create all these fairy God so that they can exert control over the public's mind. In the name of God they exploit people. Brainwashing people about the existence of such a fairy-God they make people confidence in themselves, they make them slaves out of them to have belief in something unreal instead in themselves. These religions churn people into depressed worthless sinful thinking people and depend on moral support for a fairy God.

    Can you understand how much damage they have caused to mankind. They dont allow people to think any logic, if any one questions they are casted as evil or satanic. Thus religions have curbed the very brain power of human beings. Through evolution Human has evolved to the highest state of thinking and analyzing. These fairy tales of God makes man to think less and go for non-sense belief systems. They make man so weak that people become sensitive to deep hurtedness when their belief system is questioned. This is why we should not teach our children , the future generation of a fairy God, but should allow them to question and think and grow strong internally.

    Dear madhavan,
    Leave the early part, but atleast what I wrote about the fairy God does make sense to you?. I will make explain the early part of what i mean as God and then you can comment whether it akes sense to you or not. I am open for that.

    But it will be fair on your part to tell me whether it makes sense to you that such a fairy-god does not exist . But if you oppose my views on fairy God in heaven, you are most welcome to write here.

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  43. Madhavan says there is white beard guy sitting and creating a perfect world
    I never said that. I only said YOU can not say for sure that this is not true, unless you have solid proof. Else it is called an assumption. And till now I have not heard a defense from you. You just keep saying that there is no 'white beard guy sitting' up there, but you offer no proof to validate your point.

    Can you accept that this white beard God in heaven does not make sense?
    If presence of evil negates the existence of god, then why do you believe in god. Or, do you believe in a powerless god? Can your god only 'be' and not do anything? Why didn't he stop the tsunami? Let me see your answer to these questions.

    Such a God did not create this universe. It is the reverse.
    WHERE IS THE PROOF?

    religions churn people into depressed worthless sinful thinking people
    It is a shame you do not know that lot of great scientists were, and are, practicing christians. Have you never heard of Einstein, Kepler, Newton, Kelvin, Mendel, etc? According to you, they are 'depressed worthless sinful thinking people".It is a shame you include Mother Teresa and Mahatma Gandhi in this group - they also were religious. In fact it was religion that made Mother Teresa do what she did. Shame on you who calls mother teresa as a worthless sinful thinking lady, and instead call hitler and bin laden as gods. DO YOU SEE where you are going with your argument?

    you can comment whether it akes sense to you or not.
    Should I even consider if this theology of god makes sense to me? I will be surprised if it makes sense to anybody at all.

    Your idea of god is so warped, because you never really explored what different religions say about god. You THINK you know a lot about all religions. But you do not. It will be hard for you to accept this, but you SERIOUSLY need to learn stuff before you propose your theology here. If you had done it, you will not write so many logically contradictory statements. Anyway, it is none of my business to advice you.

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  44. Dear madhavan
    unless you have solid proof.
    What proof can anyone show for that is not there. You can only use your reasoning. You say there is a red-elephant. I say nothing like that exists. You are asking me a solid proof for that. How can I show proof man?
    Let us discuss those things that we can logically think and rationalize.
    If presence of evil negates the existence of god, then why do you believe in god.
    I dont believe in a God that creates, controls and yearns for everyone's love and respect and prayers. Such are pathetic and powerless qualities. We dont even accept human with behavior. The God is say is the Self that is the Source of everything.
    Such a God did not create this universe. It is the reverse.
    WHERE IS THE PROOF? (See the above explantion)
    It is a shame you do not know that lot of great scientists were, and are, practicing christians. Have you never heard of Einstein, Kepler, Newton, Kelvin, Mendel, etc? It is a shame you include Mother Teresa and Mahatma Gandhi. Instead call hitler and bin laden as gods.
    My simple logical question is, if God created everyone, then how come he created these scientists those developed modern science that challenge the very existence of God. Mendel’s (who was himself a Christian monk) did work that disproved christian theology. He showed the proof of genetic material, with which now even human’s are now cloned. This is a challenge to God theory.
    Hitler and Bin-ladin are both from two different religious traditions. Both of them created death of so many innocent people. If Jewish God was real, then that God should have killed Hitler at his very birth. If Christian God was real, then that God should have prevented Bidladin gaining power. If a Hindu God was real, then that God should protect Hindu’s.
    We see people killing each other in the name of a fairy God , they have created. Why talk of different religions. I had a knock on my door few weeks back. A missionary entered and started talking about Bible. I politely said I have read Bible, so thank you. He asked which Bible. I said few months back a Mormon came and gave me a Bible. He said we are pentacoast, Mormon’s are not correct. Now look at how now they have created a Mormon Christ and a pentacoastal Christ.
    Do you understand madhavan, how these fairy Gods are created and there is still Human suffering?.
    So You cannot say that Religion is the cause for Good people. Not you cannot say that non-religious people are bad people. Bottom line, man is soley responsible for good and bad, whether he is religious or not religious.
    You quaoted Mother Therasa. Out of all Christian Nuns why alone she decided to help people?. Because she is Self inspired. That inspiration is the cause of the Good she did. That Self she called as Christ. She symbolically represented as Christ. No harm in that. I accept that.
    All inspiration comes from the very Self. Now what about evil, where does it come from?. It comes from the Ego. When one gets inspiration from the Self (Aham), they end up in inspiring lives. They influence so many lives ina positive way.
    When some one inspired from their Ego (selfish-attachments), their actions end up in evil, that affects so many people’s live in a negative way.
    Here is the catch for your intellect: The one who gets inspired from Self (Aham) is also Aham, and then one get inspired from Ego is also Aham. This looks non-sense. But one needs clear thinking to understand the Truth.
    Let me rephrase the above – Ego is the identification of Body mind sense complex, which we are all are. When we get inspired by the same Ego, then we end up in evil selfish actions. When the Ego looks and draws inspiration from Aham, then it ends up in good selfess actions.
    Now the question is who created Ego?. Did Aham create Ego?. Though all religious traditions talk of the highest Truth, the Self, the methodology (the path) is clearly explained in vedic Tradition. There are several examples that I can quote from Vedic tradition to explain this. But for you I will explain with the Zorastrian religion’s example. This is for me to “Show Off” to you that I explored different religions.
    Please read this link.
    http://www.sakthifoundation.org/river-11.htm

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  45. Because she is Self inspired. That Self she called as Christ.

    1. So was christ 'Self inspired' too? But he claimed to be god. Was he lying then? Are you calling Christ a liar?

    2. Even Mother Teresa called Jesus as God. Was she wrong?

    3. Was Mohammed 'Self inspired' too? He claimed to be the last prophet of Allah. Was he lying? Or was he disillusioned?

    4. Why should showing 'the proof of genetic material' be a challenge to God's theory? Man can clone man, but he needs something to start with. What makes you think that God needed things to start with? Aren't you assuming again? Can man ever create anything from nothing?

    then how come he created these scientists those developed modern science that challenge the very existence of God
    Good question - you are at last getting to the point. Your problem has always been the presence of evil in this world, that you use to disprove the existence of god. And because you were not able to reconcile the fact that evil in the world and a good and powerful god can co-exist, you propose your own contradicting theory. Because you did not understand something, you jumped into something your mortal mind can grasp. If only you tried a little harder, you would have known the answer.But don't worry, you are not alone. Great philosophers have takes similar paths in the past. So you are one among them.

    What proof can anyone show for that is not there.
    5. When I say there is a cat in the box, and you say there is no cat in the box, you can prove it by opening the box and showing it to me wether there is a cat or not. Simple. Can you similarly show that there is no god up there in heaven?

    You can only use your reasoning
    Well, there you go. You seem to be making sense finally. You perhaps do not understand yet, the profundity of the statement you just made. May be you will soon.

    The God is say is the Self that is the Source of everything.
    6. Same question again - WHERE IS THE PROOF? You said it is not possible to prove that which does not exist, you can surely show me proof for that which exists, right?

    man is soley responsible for good and bad, whether he is religious or not.
    7. Well well well....here is another contradiction. I remember you said in a post above that 'religions churn people into depressed worthless sinful thinking people'. Now you say religion does not affect a man. How do you explain yourself?

    Out of all Christian Nuns why alone she decided to help people?
    8. Honestly, do you not know of any other nun who served other humans? You must be kidding. Now you will say, there are many nuns, but they are all self inspired. But they all claim Jesus to be the sole inspiration behind their service. Are they all liars? Oh, may be they are ignorant?

    9. When everything is because of Self, why do you have to give it another name and call it God? You are actually putting to shame the name of God by calling yourself as god.

    10. Who created aham?

    FYI - there are 10 questions above.

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  46. Dear madhavan
    Very good questions.
    1. Are you calling Christ a liar? He called the Aham as God. Unfortunately no one could understand what he said. So crucified. Christ was a great Yogi, who saw only the Self and thus was able to love everyone as his self. He thus was not angry on any one. He showed universal Love.

    later when he died, after 200 years later, some understood the mistake and said he died for our sons (mistake is the sin).

    2. Even Mother Teresa called Jesus as God. Was she wrong?
    She identified that Aham as her own. She was the Aham in everyone, thus she was able to show to everyone whether he wa s abeggar, a lepor or a rich man.

    3. Was Mohammed 'Self inspired' too? Yes.

    4. Why should showing 'the proof of genetic material' be a challenge to God's theory? Man can clone man, but he needs something to start with. What makes you think that God needed things to start with? This we have to deal separately. briefly to explain you, God cannot create something God is not, if matter is separate from him, then he is no more infinite.
    5. When I say there is a cat in the box, and you say there is no cat in the box, you can prove it by opening the box and showing it to me wether there is a cat or not. Simple. Can you similarly show that there is no god up there in heaven?
    You yourself cannot show a box, then how can you show a cat in that?. Did you read how horrible it will be in heaven, where everyone will be unhappy because they cannot be near a God.
    Now you say religion does not affect a man. How do you explain yourself? I said mankind is responsible for the sufferings. Religious God faith does not save anyone from suffering. It infact make depressed and add to further suffering only. Where is the contradiction.
    Out of all Christian Nuns why alone she decided to help people?
    8. Honestly, do you not know of any other nun who served other humans? One Self inspired like will inspire others, it’s a chain reaction. Same way an Ego inspired is also chain reaction.
    9. When everything is because of Self, why do you have to give it another name and call it God? You are actually putting to shame the name of God by calling yourself as God.
    They are not the same. The God you call is not Aham. It is a fairy fictional never existing one. A fairy God, that is sadist, powerless, finite, yearning for others to love him and worship him, which can never be proved to exist. The one who believes has no proof of it.
    The I never said I (the body mind) is God, the I the Self (Aham) is God. The Self (Aham) God I talk about is eternal, infinite, and is the only “real” proof. No one can deny it. It is the one that is matter and non-matter. It is everything. It is not finite in any individual. It is the source of happiness, life, healing, knowledge, compassion, etc etc.
    10. Who created aham?
    Aham is never created, never dies. It is never born, no limit, it is eternal. Upanishads describe it as neither born nor does it die at any time. It does not come into being, or cease to exist. It is unborn, eternal, permanent, and primeval.

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  47. Unfortunately no one could understand what [christ] said
    1. You seem to be the only person who has understood christ. Even he did not understand himself - according to you. That is why he talked so many things about heaven, hell, a father in heaven, etc. He also acknowledged the old testament and the torah to be true. He claimed to be the messiah foretold in ages past. He said he will die and raise again in 3 days, and christians believe he did. he said he is preparing a place for his followers in heaven. So what you are saying is, all that christ said is false and only your view of christ is true. And everyone should simply accept whatever you say. WHY?

    He called the Aham as God
    2. Completely wrong - he called the god of the bible as god. he called the god who created the universe in 6 days as god. he called the god who physically made adam and eve as god. he called the god who led the people out of egypt into canaan as god. he called the god who gave 10 commandments as god. according to him god had personality. You are so completely WRONG. DO NOT put your words in Christ's mouth.

    Christ was a great Yogi
    3. So you are reducing Christ to a mere mortal. Thats what the jews did too, and thats why christ was crucified, because he claimed to be god.

    Unfortunately no one could understand what he said. So crucified.
    4. But fortunately you could understand. Looks like it was people like you who crucified him. Because you are to this age, denying what christ said. Either you mean to call him an idiot talking non-sense, or he was someone incapable of conveying his message, or may be he was a lunatic talking rubbish, or may be he was a plain liar, deliberately misleading his followers. Do not say he was a 'great Yogi' and at the same time misread his words. You are contradicting yourself.

    after 200 years later, some understood the mistake and said he died for our sons (mistake is the sin).
    5. 500 years BEFORE christ was born, his entire life has been prophesied in the old testament. I thought you would have known this since you have had an 'in-depth' study of all religions. Right from his birth to his death various incidents have been prophesied. And it was also told why god should come down as christ - to die for the sins of all mankind. Christ talked about sin, not mistakes.

    (mistake is the sin)
    When you a look at a woman with lust, it is a sin, not mistake. I hope you realize the difference between sin and mistake.

    She identified that Aham as her own. She was the Aham in everyone.
    6. You don't seem to have understood the question - I said Mother Teresa herself called Jesus as god. You say she called aham as god. SO WAS SHE WORNG?

    Was Mohammed 'Self inspired' too? Yes.
    7. You mean to say Mohammed was inspired by the "Self' to write the qoran, in which he calls all muslims to kill the kafirs? How can aham in Terasa inspire her to save kafirs, and the same aham in mohammed inspire him to kill kafirs?

    God cannot create something God is not,
    8. In other words, do you mean, god can create only something god is. does this statement not sound funny?
    Why does god have to create something that he already is? does god create himself? if he creates himself, what was he before he created himself - incomplete?

    Or do you mean that god is limited. he CANNOT create something that he is not. Which means he is finite and not almighty. Is this what you are telling? God can create only certain things, because he is powerless to create anything that he wishes to? He has to follow rules and regulations. If that is the case, who set the rules and regulations? Someone higher than your god?

    You yourself cannot show a box, then how can you show a cat in that?
    9. Caution, I never said there is box, or there is a cat in the box. You made the same mistake of assumption earlier. It was you who said there is no cat in the box. Which means that you know where the box is, and also know that there is no cat in the box. That is why I asked for the proof. The onus is on you to show me the box and that there is no cat in the box. If you can not show me the box, then you must admit that you are not able to show me the box, but you can not claim that there is no box.

    On the other hand, if I had claimed that there is a cat in the box, then it is my responsibility to both show the box and the cat in the box. But I never made such claims.

    If you can not prove that there is no box, and therefore no cat, then you must admit that you assumed that there is no box and cat. It is not a proven fact. Just because you did not see it, does not mean there is none. A color blind man can not say there is no color. All he can say is he can not see color. That does not mean there is no color.

    where everyone will be unhappy because they cannot be near a God.
    10. another assumption again - because you base your arguments assuming that god is a physical entity, made of matter, with H x W x L dimensions. What if god is not matter, and therefore not limited in space and time? What if people entering heaven do not have physical bodies, but enter just like god is - as spirits? Do you have any reasons to say this is not possible? I know you will deny this possibility, because it does not line up with your theory, and if I ask you for reasons, you will say - "because I say so". And you expect everyone to accept what you say, because you think you are some supergod, who is above everyone else. Wake UP!

    Where is the contradiction.
    thankfully you do not see the contradiction. good for you. I hope others who read your blog will see it. Actually there are too many, so they may miss it. again, good for you.

    One Self inspired like will inspire others, it’s a chain reaction.
    11. Do you mean all the nuns in the world who are serving other humans, have been inspired by Mother Teresa, who in turn was inspired by self? I know this is not what you mean, but you are fretting to explain yourself in some way or other, and end up writing absurd stuff.

    It is a fairy fictional never existing one
    12. AGAIN - will you never STOP? What is wrong with you? Are you so dumb that you repeat the same mistakes again and again? I told you, you can never make such claims unless you have proof. And if you do not have proof, please say "you assume it is a fairy fictional tale". NEVER claim it to be a fact. Because YOU CAN NEVER PROVE IT. If you can, show me the proof first, and then we can go from there.

    which can never be proved to exist
    13. AGAIN! Then prove that it does not exist. Or better yet, prove that YOUR god exists. You won't do either but harp on the same line again and again. Do you think it will make your statements true, just because you repeat it a million times. You are like the madman who keeps chanting, I am the king of the world, repeatedly. In the end, he still remains a madman.

    The one who believes has no proof of it.
    14. Same line holds good for you too my friend - You too believe in a god. Shall I say the same to you - the one who believes in aham has no proof of it. Don't tell upanishads say so. Then I will quote qoran and say Mohammed is right, and you are wrong, and I will quote bible and say jesus is right, and you are wrong, and I will quote darwin and say evolution is right, and you are wrong. Now, don't be a kid and get into each of these details. Try to understand what I mean here - just because some book says, does not mean it is true - I hope you get the point now. Show me the proof that aham exists.

    The Self (Aham) God I talk about is eternal, infinite, and is the only “real” proof.
    15. What kind of proof is that? Just because you say, does it make it into "real" proof? Wow! Why then does what I say does not make it into any proof? Why should I accept what you say, but you will deny what I say? Are you someone special? You think you are above normal human beings? ...err...I mean....above normal gods? Are you a super aham?

    No one can deny it.
    16. Well, I deny it. And I am sure millions of people deny it. Are we then 'no one'? You just said we all are ahams. Are you saying aham is no one, or, no one is aham!

    It is everything.
    17. Then am I also aham? why is it that I am denying it? can aham deny aham? can god deny god? then he must be a stupid god. No we all must be stupid gods, because I forgot I am a god too. Except those who blindly agree to what you say. They are enlightened gods.

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  48. Dear madhavan
    You asked one very intelligent and valid question. I am glad that you asked and allow me to answer. Hope this discussion of Aham will help us to come to consenses.

    This is your question
    Then am I also aham? why is it that I am denying it? can aham deny aham?

    It is Ego that denies Aham. Aham is a silent witness. It is not involved in any othe Ego's activities. But without Aham, there is no Ego and no Aham. But this Ego can hide this Aham and not realize it. Only if the Ego goes the Aham can be realized. Doesnt this sound crazy.

    I will give a very simple example. A cloud is such a small and a weak thing. Do you agree it can hide the sun and prevent the sun from being seen?. Now let us analyze the connection between cloud and Sun.

    Sun's ray of light causes water to evaporate from ocean. Then this water vapor rises and forms clouds with dust particles.

    Now Sun has no intension of creating clouds. Sun has no intension to evaporate Sea water. It is a physical law, that if there is water and in presence of heat it will evaporate and it is a physical law that in presence of dust, it will form a cloud.

    The cloud which is nothing to the vastness and power of a sun, can however can hide the sunlight. It is doing nothing to the sun, all it does it prevents us feel that that there is no Sun.

    This is an analogy. Same way, you keep 100 small mirrors in an open air. In each mirror you will see one sun. Are there 100 different suns?. No one sun is reflected in 100 mirrors.

    There is only Aham, that is reflected and behind every being in this universe. It looks as many Ahams, infact there is only one Aham. One small petty little cloud (Ego) can hide this gigantic sun.

    Same way when Ego is there, the Aham is hidden (like cloud hiding the vision of Sun). We are all Aham but because of the clouded Ego we deny the Aham.

    Aham is just a witness to all that happens in this Universe. It did not create Ego, but Ego appears due to combinational events, like cloud formed by evaporation of water and dust. No one can deny Aham, event the denier is also Aham. Even the cloud is visible because of sunlight. Everything in this universe is visible due to light. This is why light or fire is considered holy or sacred, because it illuminates things.

    Same way God or Aham is a silent witness that we cannot deny. Even the denying energy we get from Aham, like the cloud that the sun it hides is also visible due to the Sun light.

    Yog means to unite. Yogi means one who is united with the Aham. Yog is the sanskrit word for unite.

    Yoga is a technique not just to keep the body fit, but to help to transcend the Ego, so we know that our real nature is Aham, that illuminates the whole show.

    Aham is the silent witness like the Sun. From the earth stand point of view, we see sun is born everyday in the eastern sky and dies by plunging into the western ocean. In reality sun never rises never sets.

    same way the Aham never dies never borns. it is eternal. only from the stand point view of the body we imagine that the Aham dies and Aham is reborn.

    Now this this view you will not see any contradiction with any religious traditions and Spiritual traditions. Without this view, then everyone will fight they are only correct and the other is wrong. This "I" am only right attitude of religion is what I am against.

    In this View Aham is God. What I call Aham You call God, only names are different. They become different when Aham and God denotes two different things.

    Dear Madhavan
    Let us discuss this Aham more if you have questions. as I said, with this understanding we will come to a consesses view.

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  49. sorry a mistake - correction.

    It is Ego that denies Aham. Aham is a silent witness. It is not involved in any of the Ego's activities. But without Aham, there is no Ego and no acitivites. Aham still stays the same.

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  50. This "I" am only right attitude of religion is what I am against.
    Are you not having the same attitude? Please think about it honestly. You do not have to agree it in public.

    Even the denying energy we get from Aham
    So the point of your long essay is to agree that aham can deny aham, and aham actually gives the energy to deny aham. In other words, your god can not only deny your god, but also enables you to do so. In that case, why is ego wrong? If god is behind the ego denying god, then it is good. Or do you believe that god is the origin of evil?

    You actually said in an earlier post that ego is the origin of evil, and here you mention that god is origin of ego. So god creates ego, and ego creates evil, therefore god creates evil. Do you think I should bow down in worship to a god who creates evil?

    this view you will not see any contradiction with any religious traditions and Spiritual traditions
    No religion teaches that god is the source of evil - except yours.

    In this View Aham is God. What I call Aham You call God,
    I absolutely agree with you. Only problem is I do not subscribe to the same view. It is your view. In my view, aham can not be god, because aham is the source of all evil in this world, and all the sufferings I am enduring. I do not call it god. Some people call it the devil.

    I also do not understand how you conveniently believe that both good and evil are sourced from the same god. To my mind it is contradictory. I know it does not occur to you like that.

    I had written some 17 points, and you seem to have responded to one. I assume then that you see the problems with atleast the rest of your arguments.

    So these are my conclusions:
    1. You suck at logic, so do not use it. If you really must, it is a good idea to take a course in logic. It will help you enormously in future discussions.
    2. You do not know when something is called a fact and when it is called an assumption. Better get that straight.
    3. You hardly know much about christ and his claims, so do not consider yourself eligible to talk about christianity.
    4. You do not appear to know much about mohammed too, so perhaps you shouldn't comment about him and his teachings.
    5. You do not seem to know much about God (not aham) in general. Almost all your assumptions (which you claim as facts) about god are erroneous - thats because you really did not take time to learn them. So you better not comment about the etymological God.
    6. You learnt a few things about aham, and it appealed to your mind and you found the theory fit well with what you were expecting, so you tagged along. This is the only area where you can spread your wings.

    In general, do not demote other religions (religions churn people into depressed worthless sinful thinking people) and their views to promote yours. It is better you say what you find positive in your concept of god, and leave it at that. If people find it appealing to them, then they may turn to your ways. Once you have like minded people, then of course you can trash every religion in the world in your privacy, but if want to do it on a public forum, you better know what you are getting into.

    Let us discuss this Aham more if you have questions
    I assume here that you are no longer interested in discussing broader areas of theology, and would like to focus on what you think is more pertinent. I am sorry, I do not want to get into the specifics unless I can see the general details clearly, and I am not convinced with any of your answers, and most of them remain unanswered. However, I can't help but appreciate your enthusiasm in defending your views. I only wish all this energy you spend is used in defending something that is logically and philosophically sound.

    I guess I should stop wasting your time henceforth. Thanks for your time.

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  51. Dear Madhavan,
    I never said Aham gives rise to evil. Read the analogy I gave you.

    The Ego feels cozy with fairy tales and is scared to give up its belief's and so when cornered would run away.

    Ego like clouds is scared of Sun, the Truth, becuase it will melt into vapor when it approaches closer Sun.

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